Discussion:
Effect of UNIDROIT convention on Postage Stamp Collectors?
(too old to reply)
Mike Hopper
2004-02-28 15:56:13 UTC
Permalink
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
Objects" see:

http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm

and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.

My stamp collection interest is in 19th century postal objects so they would
all fall into this category. I know I cannot prove that many of them were
"exported legally" from whatever country they came from.

Does anyone have any information on what stamp dealers and collectors are
doing about this convention which has been agreed to by a number of
countries but only put into law by a few? Why were stamps included in this
protection of "cultural artifacts" at all? I notice that Norway has drawn
up some specific rules on the stamp question and has set a value of 15,000
Euros on any item or collection to be covered by their legislation.

What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.

There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.

mike
Eric Bustad
2004-02-28 17:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.
My stamp collection interest is in 19th century postal objects so they would
all fall into this category. I know I cannot prove that many of them were
"exported legally" from whatever country they came from.
Does anyone have any information on what stamp dealers and collectors are
doing about this convention which has been agreed to by a number of
countries but only put into law by a few? Why were stamps included in this
protection of "cultural artifacts" at all? I notice that Norway has drawn
up some specific rules on the stamp question and has set a value of 15,000
Euros on any item or collection to be covered by their legislation.
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
How many countries have laws that prohibit the export of their older
stamps without permission? I believe that India does. And Russia? Any
others?

The situation wrt coins is much different, as ancient coins are often
illegally dug out of archaeological sites, seriously damaging these
sites, and then illegally exported.

But, after reading through the text of the treaty, I don't see where is
requires proof of legal export. Can you point that out to me? I don't
see anything on the http://www.unidroit.com site that really explains
this either.

= Eric
Mike Hopper
2004-02-28 18:47:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Bustad
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.
My stamp collection interest is in 19th century postal objects so they would
all fall into this category. I know I cannot prove that many of them were
"exported legally" from whatever country they came from.
Does anyone have any information on what stamp dealers and collectors are
doing about this convention which has been agreed to by a number of
countries but only put into law by a few? Why were stamps included in this
protection of "cultural artifacts" at all? I notice that Norway has drawn
up some specific rules on the stamp question and has set a value of 15,000
Euros on any item or collection to be covered by their legislation.
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
How many countries have laws that prohibit the export of their older
stamps without permission? I believe that India does. And Russia? Any
others?
The situation wrt coins is much different, as ancient coins are often
illegally dug out of archaeological sites, seriously damaging these
sites, and then illegally exported.
But, after reading through the text of the treaty, I don't see where is
requires proof of legal export. Can you point that out to me? I don't
see anything on the http://www.unidroit.com site that really explains
this either.
= Eric
Eric

While there is no direct requirement of proof of legal export in that
particular document there is Article 6 sub 2 which talks about the lack of
appropriate export documentation.

A lot more information on UNIDROIT can be found in the Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/?yguid=90109991
but it is again mostly concerned with coins. I understand their dilemma but
still would like to know why postage stamps, which are used after all to
attach to objects that might leave a particular country, are included in
this convention.

mike
Eric Bustad
2004-02-28 20:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Hopper
Post by Eric Bustad
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.
My stamp collection interest is in 19th century postal objects so they would
all fall into this category. I know I cannot prove that many of them were
"exported legally" from whatever country they came from.
Does anyone have any information on what stamp dealers and collectors are
doing about this convention which has been agreed to by a number of
countries but only put into law by a few? Why were stamps included in this
protection of "cultural artifacts" at all? I notice that Norway has drawn
up some specific rules on the stamp question and has set a value of 15,000
Euros on any item or collection to be covered by their legislation.
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
How many countries have laws that prohibit the export of their older
stamps without permission? I believe that India does. And Russia? Any
others?
The situation wrt coins is much different, as ancient coins are often
illegally dug out of archaeological sites, seriously damaging these
sites, and then illegally exported.
But, after reading through the text of the treaty, I don't see where is
requires proof of legal export. Can you point that out to me? I don't
see anything on the http://www.unidroit.com site that really explains
this either.
Eric
While there is no direct requirement of proof of legal export in that
particular document there is Article 6 sub 2 which talks about the lack of
appropriate export documentation.
A lot more information on UNIDROIT can be found in the Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unidroit-L/?yguid=90109991
but it is again mostly concerned with coins. I understand their dilemma but
still would like to know why postage stamps, which are used after all to
attach to objects that might leave a particular country, are included in
this convention.
"In determining whether the possessor knew or ought reasonably
to have known that the cultural object had been illegally
exported, regard shall be had to the circumstances of the
acquisition, including the absence of an export certificate
required under the law of the requesting State."

In context, this seems to refer to deciding whether the current
possessor of an item, already determined to have been illegally
exported, is entitled to compensation for giving up the item, not the
determination of whether the item has, in fact, been illegally exported.

The example refered to at
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a584i9%2458spd%241%40ID-86007.news.dfncis.de>,
referenced elsewhere in this thread, is for a case where the collection
of Indian stamps and postal history in question had been owned by an
Indian citizen in India, then were placed on auction in London. No
export license had been issued by the Indian government. One might
question the wisdom of India's law in this respect, but there does not
seem to be any question but that these stamps were illegally exported.

= Eric
Roger
2004-02-28 19:39:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.
My stamp collection interest is in 19th century postal objects so they would
all fall into this category. I know I cannot prove that many of them were
"exported legally" from whatever country they came from.
Does anyone have any information on what stamp dealers and collectors are
doing about this convention which has been agreed to by a number of
countries but only put into law by a few? Why were stamps included in this
protection of "cultural artifacts" at all? I notice that Norway has drawn
up some specific rules on the stamp question and has set a value of 15,000
Euros on any item or collection to be covered by their legislation.
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
mike
Mike, I hope that Victor at least will pick this up, and it would be
interesting to know if he is aware whether the issue has been
satisfactorily resolved or not.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=india+group:rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&selm=a584i9%2458spd%241%40ID-86007.news.dfncis.de&rnum=23

Best regards

Roger
Victor Manta
2004-02-29 20:52:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit Convention
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is more
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally exported
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to the
country of origin.
snip
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that in
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant lobby
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors and
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
mike
Mike, I hope that Victor at least will pick this up, and it would be
interesting to know if he is aware whether the issue has been
satisfactorily resolved or not.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=india+group:rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&
start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&sel
m=a584i9%2458spd%241%40ID-86007.news.dfncis.de&rnum=23
Post by Roger
Best regards
Roger
I don't know the final result.

BTW, I think that the only satisfactory solution is to repeal all laws that
limit the individual property rights and the freedom of trade.

I still remember that in the Communist Romania a stamp collector had the
right to trade abroad each three months a maximum of 100 lei (maybe $10) in
Romanian stamps, and this only through the national philatelic association
(each letter being controlled).

Victor Manta

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
malcolm hirst
2004-03-01 10:46:05 UTC
Permalink
I don't think stamp collectors have too much to worry about here. This
particular piece of legislation is aimed at items of the stature of
the "Elgin Marbles" in the British Museum not the sheet of mint
5pfennig Hitler heads "liberated" by Corporal Bloggs from a Berlin
post office in 1945! The tracing and legal recovery of the odd bit of
philatelic "loot" would be more than most countries can be bothered
with. However philatelic items resulting from modern-day larceny would
of course be a completely different matter. In my opinion you cannot
retrospectively apply any such legislation to a period when the
country was not in the least interested in its philatelic heritage and
certainly did not prohibit such exports. In fact were it not for the
"export" of such items when philately was considered even more "odd"
than it is now,it would probably not have survived at all so its a bit
rich to ask for it back now!
Post by Mike Hopper
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
I came across the somewhat troublesome issue of how postage stamps, and
collections of such items, might be treated by any enforcement of the
UNIDROIT conventions. The particular case is that of "Unidroit
Convention
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
on the International Return of Stolen or Illegally Exported Cultural
http://www.unidroit.org/english/conventions/c-cult.htm
and especially the annex (l) where stamps and collections are directly
spelled out. As I understand this convention any item listed that is
more
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
than 100 years old and which cannot be proven to have been legally
exported
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
from the country of origin is liable to be confiscated and returned to
the
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
country of origin.
snip
What is the status of this convention in other countries? I hear that
in
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
both Germany and the UK the government is being subject to significant
lobby
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
pressure to implement their versions. I would like to keep up with what
other smaller countries are doing about this.
There is a strong backlash against the convention from coin collectors
and
Post by Roger
Post by Mike Hopper
dealers but have seen very little from the philatelic world. See
http://www.unidroit.com for some of the anti-UNIDROIT commentary.
mike
Mike, I hope that Victor at least will pick this up, and it would be
interesting to know if he is aware whether the issue has been
satisfactorily resolved or not.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=india+group:rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&
start=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=rec.collecting.stamps.discuss&sel
m=a584i9%2458spd%241%40ID-86007.news.dfncis.de&rnum=23
Post by Roger
Best regards
Roger
I don't know the final result.
BTW, I think that the only satisfactory solution is to repeal all laws that
limit the individual property rights and the freedom of trade.
I still remember that in the Communist Romania a stamp collector had the
right to trade abroad each three months a maximum of 100 lei (maybe $10) in
Romanian stamps, and this only through the national philatelic association
(each letter being controlled).
Victor Manta
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philatelic Webmasters Organization: http://pwmo.org
Art on Stamps: http://values.ch
Romania Shown by Its Stamps: http://marci-postale.com
Communism on Stamps: http://www.values.ch/Communism/
Spanish Africa: http://www.values.ch/sna-site/
Remove "um" from the e-mail address to reply
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"
Loading...